But you already knew that. You also already knew that I have a special place in my heart for Spider-Man. You probably already knew that Joey Q. doesn't like the fact that Spider-Man is married. Joe gives a number of rationalizations for this; few if any of them make sense. Let's take a look, shall we?
Sure, are Peter and MJ okay as is, sure, but a lot of the drama and soap opera that was an integral part of the Spider-Man mythos is gone. What happens is that we as creators forget that there are always new readers coming into comics, why shouldn’t they experience Peter as we did when we discovered him. [sic]
This? This is patently ridiculous. Let's run down the things that have happened under Joe Quesada's watch that fly right in the face of this:
- Spider-Man learns that his powers may come from some magical Spider-Totem
- Spider-Man goes through a metamorphosis, gets organic web-shooters and stronger powers, and gains the ability to talk to bugs.
- We find out that Gwen Stacy had an affair and children with Norman Osborn.
- Aunt May's house is destroyed.
- Peter moves in with the Avengers, becomes a member.
- Black Cat reveals that she was raped.
- Spider-Man goes through another metamorphosis and becomes a totemistic spider-god with a crazy new costume.
What am I missing? The Scorpion became the new Venom or something, didn't he? All this, and the fact that so much of Spider-Man's current history is tied into the rest of the Marvel Universe. Whether it's because of the Straczynski baggage or the New Avengers membership, Peter's caught in a web of continuity, which is only going to get stickier as 2006 Marvel Crossover #134 continues. You want people to be able to come into Spider-Man as you did when you discovered him? Take him out of the shared universe proper. Tell more stories like "Spider-Man/Human Torch" or Fantastic Four #512-513, where it doesn't depend on years of complicated, convoluted continuity, just on characters' simple relationships. Strip away all this Iron Spider and Totem garbage that only complicates a simple character.
Or, you know, direct people to read Ultimate Spider-Man, since that's supposed to be the purpose of Ultimate Spider-Man.
While I always hated the portrayal of the marriage, and by that I mean that for years after they were married they were never really portrayed as truly happy, I don’t understand in a way why that was done. I believe it was an attempt by the creators back then to bring back a much-needed tension to the relationship side of Peter’s world that was now missing because he was no longer single. It was an attempt to bring back the soap opera.
For an Editor-in-Chief, this statement's got a lot of easily remedied mistakes, to the point where it doesn't really make sense unless there's a typo somewhere. Grammatical grousing aside, Joe here betrays the fact that he doesn't have a $#@*ing clue what he wants out of Spider-Man. Joey goes on and on in the interview about the "soap opera" aspect of Spider-Man (nevermind that in soap operas, people still grow up and change), pining for the days when Peter was a hopeless geek with a string of girlfriends (guh?), then criticizes the writers after the marriage for never showing Peter and MJ to be "truly happy." Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that generally the point of Spider-Man? He's a lovable loser, whose life is kind of crappy both in and out of costume, but he keeps going on despite all his problems. Newlyweds often aren't "truly happy," and two people as different as Peter and MJ shouldn't be expected to just settle into "true happiness" after the tux and the dress come off.
Quesada says something that many comic writers say in regards to Spider-Man and Superman and other married comic characters, namely that marriage eliminates a wealth of stories that were possible when the character was single. F'r instance:
There are so many more stories and angles that you can go with a single Peter that just aren’t available to us because of the marriage. There is no denying that during the classic heyday of Spider-Man soap opera played an important part in the telling of his stories. Remember, he had a bunch of girlfriends before even meeting MJ, Gwen, Betty, and Liz.
What these writers, editors, whoever fail to see is that marriage may close off the "love triangle" stories that surrounded every freaking superhero from 1938-1985, but it opens up new story possibilities--stories about the conflicts that occur in marriage. More in a moment, there's more stupid to deal with first.
As a single character there was always that possibility that Peter could meet someone new. Now if you have him even consider a new relationship, he would become the most dislikable character in the history of comics, he’s a married man and he’s Peter Parker. Peter Parker is us - he is our everyman, that’s what makes him so likable. In the past, during his single days, he could have been torn by a romantic triangle, not now that he’s married. How about that wonderful tension that there use to be between Peter and Black Cat. As it stands she can try to tempt him, but in no way can Peter succumb and still remain a likable character.
How about that tension? Because, you know, married people don't still feel feelings for their exes occasionally, because no conflict ever arises from people who are worried or jealous about their spouses associating with ex-significant-others.
If you read that above quote and you feel your brain beginning to collapse in on itself, don't worry. Joe Quesada's mind is a scary place. I mean, it takes a real special sort of bonehead to say this:
he is our everyman, that’s what makes him so likable
then follow it with this:
In the past, during his single days, he could have been torn by a romantic triangle
I'll try to finish this post quickly, since Joe Quesada is giving me a migraine. Last I checked, "soap opera" and "everyman" were not related terms. Last I checked, John Q. Public of 123 Main Street, Anytown, USA, didn't routinely become embroiled in love triangles. Peter Parker's not an everyman, Peter Parker is what every man wants to be. He's a dork who ends up able to parley his science geekery into a career as a superhero, and subsequently as a photographer. Sure, his civilian life kind of sucks, but the bully who torments him in his civilian life worships his secret identity, while the boss who torments his superhero persona pays his paycheck. He gets a private little chuckle on both ends, and his newfound confidence ends up landing him a string of attractive young women who battle for his attention.
Where in there is the everyman again? I lost him somewhere around "superhero." The only everyman aspect of Peter's life, from the get-go, was the fact that he dealt with problems that normal people faced with money, school, and women. It just happened that he had a decent job, a brilliant mind, and hot women to cause him problems.If we could remove Spider-Man from this cosmic/magic/crossover brouhaha that he's been embroiled in for years, you could tell stories about those same sorts of problems. Peter Parker, schoolteacher and photojournalist, has to deal with working at an underfunded New York public school, while his wife is an insecure former supermodel, trying to gain legitimacy as an actress and struggling in the highly competitive world of New York Theater. All this, and superheroics too.
I think the big thing that's missing from that picture, the thing that has been missing for a very long time, is a strong supporting cast. Where are JJJ and Robbie Robertson? Betty Brant and Flash Gordon and Liz Osborn? What Spider-Man needs is a non-superheroic supporting cast of people at the school (something that was so fantastic about the first couple of Marvel Team-Up trades) and around his apartment, so that he and MJ aren't 'that married couple who never sees anyone else.' You want a reason that the 'soap opera' has gone out of Spider-Man's life? You want to complain about the marriage? There's your complaint. Marrying Peter has made people forget that his supporting cast was about more than just love triangles and booty.
What it comes down to is a matter of fantasies and wish fulfillment; as I mentioned above, that's what Spidey's always been about. Joe Quesada and other writers have a fantasy life that prefers bachelorhood and love triangles and steamy affairs with hot women over a happy marriage. To them, marriage=boring, monotonous. Whereas someone who loves being married, like Tom Beland, might write a fun little romantic tale about a happily married couple who still has problems from time to time. Spider-Man's married life is only boring because the people who are writing it think of marriage as boring. It's short-sighted, and it's more than a little disrespectful to married folks. I'd like to continue with Joe Quesada's stupid statements, but I just don't have the time or space. Maybe I'll hit up one a day until I can't stands it no more, or something. As with most things of this nature, it comes back to the fact that Joe Quesada needs to shut up. More specifically, however, he and the other marriage-haters need to realize that getting hitched isn't social death, and it doesn't require a character to become a magical spider-god to stay interesting. Spider-Man's appeal has always been in his realistic problems and his underdog status. Ultimate Spider-Man gets to play out all those realistic (and not-so) teen problems in his comic, while the adult fan-base of the core Spider-Man books can enjoy their hero's response to the sort of problems faced by grown-up married people with real jobs. If you want to bring back the 'soap opera' aspect of Spider-Man's life, then do it by moving forward, bringing back a soap opera-esque ensemble cast, and by viewing marriage as a source of new conflicts, and not a hindrance to using the same old ones.
12 comments:
Once again, you've hit the nail on the head. I agree with pretty much everything written. I found this comment by Quesada to be profoundly and especially stupid.
"...why shouldn’t they experience Peter as we did when we discovered him."
I thought this was really stupid logic. If the characters never change, why read comics at all? Why write them? Why not just pump out reprints because the status quo is never going to change? This comment frustrated me more than anything else, because it undermines the very purpose of sequential storytelling. We read comics because we want to see the characters grow and change. Spider-Man is an excellent example of this - we've seen Peter mature from a neurotic high schooler to a confident college student to a responsible adult. I think that, in part, explains the success of the character. I guess Quesada disagrees, and would rather see Peter engage in a hot three way with Betty Brant and the Black Cat while worrying about finishing his physics term paper.
Yup. Especially on the supporting cast: absolutely key to Spider-Man.
And in the most purely practical sense, none of those stories Joe Q. wants to see can be told anyway. I mean, how would you do it? In a storytelling sense, how would you find the handle on the old-style Peter Parker when he hasn't got any of the trappings of the old Peter Parker anymore? Also, talk about what I don't want to see: a divorced Spider-Man who gets right back into the old love-triangle thing. There's something sick about that, isn't there? Doesn't that make him feel older to you, like Peter Parker with a mid-life crisis?
I could stand to read one of these a day, no problem. Just to know that there are still people out there who even remember Spider-Man.
I definitely agree with timo, "If the characters never change, why read comics at all?"
I personally first encountered comic-book Spider-Man (as opposed to TV or toy Spider-Man) during the '90s Clone Saga (okay, really showing my youth there). So okay, what happens to me? Do I go, "Hey, this married Spider-Man, pregnant Mary Jane and Ben Reilly character aren't what I'm familiar with! I'm never reading comics again!" Far from it, I was intrigued , desperate to find out what was happening in the lives of these characters (and I naively believed that nothing about the whole affair would not be of huge importance to Spider-Man continuity overall). Giving characters a new direction every now and then, like Peter Parker getting married, introducing Ben as a new Spider-Man or the Iron Spidey costume doesn't (IMHO and in my own experience) put off potential readers at all. They make the characters seem all the more interesting because they can change and develop. What puts people off is when these things are later completely swept under the carpet and we are advised to forget they ever happened (like everything that ever happens over at DC, of course, but again, that's IMHO).
If any little boys or girls picking up comics today are anything like me, they will most certainly not go "This Spider-Man isn't like the RELATABLE Spidey of the cartoons! Look at him, he's married!" One of the best things about Spider-Man is that he retains his ability for readers to relate to him despite of all the changes that occur in his life. I remember reading an entry over at the excellent Double Articulation on how the Iron-Man-inspired costume did not indeed render him 'too powerful' at all, as he was still the same Peter Parker at heart. I don't care if Peter Parker gets married, has kids, joins the Avengers, the X-Men, the Defenders, whatever. As long as he's still Peter Parker on the inside (and hey, that was even true of Ben Reilly's Spider-Man really, wasn't it), nothing will make this character not the Peter Parker that I want to read.
Besides, I honestly can't imagine the break-up of Peter & MJ's marriage being handled any way other than poorly, as either they'll find some very very poor reason to suddenly hate each other (like say, she suddenly has an affair while he's off on some space mission with the Avengers), or MJ will be unceremoniously slaughtered (girls in refridgerators, anyone?). I do not want this to be like Kyle Rayner's love-life!
The aggravating thing, and I posted about it a few days ago, is that just a few years ago, Peter DID have a cast of friends and aquantinces.
Mackie and jenkins had him rooming with Robbie's son, and frequently going to clubs and stuff with Randy, Glory Grant, and Jill Stacy. It was 20-something people having fun, and ocasionally talking about problems with each other.
JMS comes along, and Peter gets a new single apartment, but Jenkins still tries to give Peter some goofy neighbors. The blonde girl across the street with the dog, the crazy New Zealander, right off the top of my head. Peter was still interacting with everyday people. MJ came back, Jenkins added comatose Flash and his nurse, there was people stuff going on.
After Jenkins left, they pretty much dumped all that, and Pete doesn't seem to interact with "normal" people anymore, which they really need to get back to.
The problem is, to do that it feels like they'll have to pull him from the main continuity entirely. If they don't get him off the Avengers (even though I have no problem with him on the team), and living with MJ in an apartment somewhere, I'm not sure we'll ever get to see that Peter again. It just seems like they've got him too caught up in all this big stuff.
Thank you for the post. I was completely on fire when I read Joe's post, for all the reasons stated here. I posted my own "mad at Joe Q" post, without giving it much of an in depth look. But I was so glad to see the fanboys agreeing with me.
Mary Jane has always been one of my favorite comic characters (not just because she's a redhead), and to make Peter an Axe ad is just absurd.
Fantastic post. "Web of Romance" was such a breath of fresh air. It's a shame that so much potential for great stories involving these engrossing characters gets blown for sensationalism and crossover quick fixes. I'm not going to reiterate how right you are on so many points in this post. Mary Jane has always been one of my favorite characters in the Spidey mythos, and it's obvious that she's severaly underdeveloped as a character (all boob jokes aside) and has been grossly misunderstood by so many writers. Take, for example, the way they basically melded MJ and Gwen Stacy to create Kirsten Dunst's movie character. All JMS criticism aside, he unassailably writes a great Peter/MJ relationship.
The beauty of the Ultimate line is that we can experience the old characters as though they were new. I thought this was the ostensibly stated purpose for the Ultimate line in the first place, right, Marvel? Was is really just to sell more Spidey beach balls and prove that Bagley and Bendis can do a Spidey book in their sleep faster than mere waking mortals? I grew up a huge Marvel fan and respect the old school as much as the next guy, but Stan Lee was never the best dialgoue writer, and his hackneyed ideas carried themselves off on sheer audacity alone sometimes. The reinvention of Spidey via the Ultimate line brought me back to comics after a five year hiatus (minus buying every issue of "Preacher"). I wonder sometimes if I've cost myself IQ points for that decision.
Quesada's done some good things for Marvel, no question. I think his greatest talents lie not in editorial but in the pencil. Get this man on a monthly comic! Pair him up with a real writer, throw him on whatever title he wants and ease him out of the EIC chair.
And tell him to stay the #@!$ away from Peter Parker before he does any more damage.
Joe went on his rant, read the uproar and had to have his last word by quoting one of the few fans who agrees with him.
I for one am sick of the self-fulfilling prophecy of anti-marriage creators. They don't like it, so they do poor job depicting it, then say "see, told you the marriage was a bad idea".
This has been going on for years in the Superman books. It finally looks like Lois Lane will get a fair shake with Busiek's run. He's said he isn't sure the marriage was a good idea but it is here and he is working with the cards dealt.
I don't care if the creators disagree with previous editorial decisions, but don't disrespect the characters and the audience just because of a personal grudge.
I just realized, months after writing this, that I said "Flash Gordon" instead of "Flash Thompson." I apologize; counting Flash Gordon among your supporting cast would certainly go against the 'everyman' concept.
Well, its now 2007 and Joe Quesada has done exactly what he set out to do. Kill the MJ/Peter marriage. I'm all for a large supportive cast, but I don't see how the OMD crap is the best way to get around to that. We've seen single Parker eating wheatcakes, love triangles and etc. I don't want anymore of that, if I did I'd go back to a back issue.
So he tosses 20 years, when it was under his run that he become non-social in the first place. The marriage didn't kill his social life. It was him doing a zillion things at once, New Avengers, school teacher and etc. No wonder he doesn't have a social life, he's been removed from it.
That being said, I was looking forward to seeing how Liz dealt with the unmasking. As she always hated Spider-Man for killing Harry. Anyway, I'm done with Spider-Man if the old status-quo is the new status-quo once more.
next marvel event "Brand new editor in chief ?"
face it quesada i will just stop reading spiderman's comics
Why can´t Quesada say something intelligent? I mean, look for instance when he mentions that if a writer made a story with a love triangle betwen Pete, MJ and Black Cat Spidey would become the most hated character. Gerry Conaway wrote something similar during his run in Spectacular just that instead of being Peter , it was MJ the one that almost fall into temptation with a douche whose name i can never remember. Did we hated her for this? No. The guy kissed her (and she let him kiss her)not once, not twice but three times and we didn´t hate her. At the end, she overcomes this realizing she was doing wrong and tell the guy where to go. Something like that might sound lame but well-writen might be excellent. And finally, in my humble opinion, who wants to read soap-opera style comcis??? We want wel writen comics (Kraven´s Last Hunt, The Best of Enemies, The Child Within comes to my mind)Ok, ok so they might be soap opera style, but they were great reading because they were excellent written.Oh, and one more thing he says he wants new readers to discover Spider-Man like he did, well i was born in 1987, he was already married when i met him like many others, we´ve only known a married Spider-Man, so... it´s on the eye of the beholder.
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